Interview series: If you could send a list back in time, what would you tell yourself?

The Peek behind the Curtain interview series includes interviews with eleven people I thought were particularly successful, relatable, or productive. We cover topics ranging from productivity to career exploration to self-care.

This forth post covers “If you could send a list back in time to your college freshman self, what would you tell them?” plus other reflections on career exploration and decisions.

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A Peek Behind the Curtain Interview Series

People often look to others that they deem particularly productive and successful and come up with (often fairly ungrounded) guesses for how these people accomplish so much. Instead of guessing, I want to give a peek behind the curtain.

I interviewed eleven people I thought were particularly successful, relatable, or productive. We discussed topics ranging from productivity to career exploration to self-care.

The Peak behind the Curtain interview series is meant to help dispel common myths and provide a variety of takes on success and productivity from real people. To that end, I’ve grouped responses on common themes to showcase a diversity of opinions on these topics.

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Interview series: Have you ever doubted whether you're good enough to pursue your career?

People often look to others that they deem particularly productive and successful and come up with (often fairly ungrounded) guesses for how these people accomplish so much. Instead of guessing, I want to give a peek behind the curtain.

I interviewed eleven people I thought were particularly successful, relatable, or productive. We discussed topics ranging from productivity to career exploration to self-care. The Peak behind the Curtain interview series is meant to help dispel common myths and provide a variety of takes on success and productivity from real people.

This first post covers “Have you ever doubted whether you're good enough to pursue your career?” and other personal struggles.

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Rohin Shah

Rohin Shah is a Research Scientist at DeepMind studying methods that allow us to build AI systems that pursue the objectives their users intend them to pursue, rather than the objectives that were literally specified. Rohin completed his PhD at the Center for Human-Compatible AI at UC Berkeley and publishes the Alignment Newsletter to summarize work relevant to AI alignment.

In this interview, Rohin and I discuss his advice for careers in AI safety, as well as his productivity style, experience with research, and personal career path.

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Michelle Hutchinson

Michelle Hutchinson holds a PhD in Philosophy from the University of Oxford, where her thesis was on global priorities research. While completing that, she did the operational set-up of the Centre for Effective Altruism and then became Executive Director of Giving What We Can. She is currently the Assistant Director of One-on-One Programme at 80,000 Hours.

Michelle and I discuss management, how to get advice, and her experience starting organizations.

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Julia Wise

Julia Wise serves as a contact person for the effective altruism community and helps local and online groups support their members. She serves on the board of GiveWell and writes about effective altruism at Giving Gladly. She was president of Giving What We Can from 2017-2020. Before joining CEA, Julia was a social worker, and studied sociology at Bryn Mawr College.

In this interview, Julia and I discuss her thoughts sustainable motivation, mental health, and finding her place in effective altruism.

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Jade Leung

Jade is Governance Lead at OpenAI. She was the inaugural Head of Research & Partnerships with the Centre for the Governance of Artificial Intelligence (GovAI), housed at Oxford’s Future of Humanity Institute. She completed her DPhil in AI Governance at the University of Oxford and is a Rhodes scholar.

In this interview, Jade and I discuss her thoughts on motivation, productivity, and career path.

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Gregory Lewis

Gregory Lewis is a DPhil Scholar at the Future of Humanity Institute, where he investigates long-run impacts and potential catastrophic risk from advancing biotechnology. Previously, he was an academic clinical fellow in public health medicine and before that a junior doctor. He holds a master’s in public health and a medical degree, both from Cambridge University.

In this interview, Greg and I discuss his productivity style, experience with forecasting, and advice for careers in biosecurity.

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Eva Vivalt

Eva did an Economics Ph.D. and Mathematics M.A. at the University of California, Berkeley after a master’s in Development Studies at Oxford University. She then worked at the World Bank for two years and founded AidGrade before finding her way back to academia.

In this interview, Eva and I discuss her thoughts on mentors, doing a PhD, research, and sustainable motivation.

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Daniel Ziegler

This interview is part of the “A Peak behind the Curtain” interview series. Daniel Ziegler researched AI safety at OpenAI.

He has since left to do AI safety research at Redwood Research. In this interview, Daniel and I discuss his career path, work motivation, and advice for getting into AI safety.

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Ajeya Cotra

This interview is part of the “A Peak behind the Curtain” interview series. Ajeya Cotra is a Senior Research Analyst at Open Philanthropy where she worked on a framework for estimating when transformative AI may be developed, as well as various cause prioritization and worldview diversification projects. She joined Open Philanthropy in July 2016 as a Research Analyst. Ajeya received a B.S. in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science from UC Berkeley.

In this interview, Ajeya and I discuss her thoughts on research approach, including research phases and flow. We also touch on self-confidence, sustainability, and rest.

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Abi Olvera

This interview is part of the “A Peak behind the Curtain” interview series. Abigail Olvera was a U.S. diplomat last working at the China Desk. Abi was formerly stationed at the US Embassies in Egypt and Senegal and holds a Master's of Global Affairs from Yale University.

In this interview, Abi and I discuss her experience with working in policy, her thoughts on networking, and how her career path unfolded.

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Want to be an expert? Build deep models

When I imagine someone who I expect to actually succeed at building an organization to improve mental health, I visualize an expert who can answer all of the questions above right away, with convincing arguments supported by facts that they know off the top of their heads. They might not have a direct answer to every question, but whenever they don’t have a direct answer they’ll have a good explanation of why that question is not particularly important. In short, these experts have an unusually complex mental map of the problem. I call these mental maps ‘deep models’.

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Clearer paths and sharper ideas (Crosspost)

I had the pleasure of going on the Clearer Thinking podcast with Spencer Greenberg for a pleasant chat about:

What are "forward-chaining" and "backward-chaining", and how do they connect with theory of change? What sorts of mental habits and heuristics prevent you from brainstorming ideas effectively? How can you harness feedback effectively to sharpen your ideas? From whom should you solicit feedback? How can you view your own products with fresh eyes? What are some common struggles people encounter when starting or changing careers, and how can they be overcome? Why are small experiments so under-used? How can we construct a sustainable work life? What are the best ways to rest and recover from overwork and burnout?

You can listen to the podcast here: https://clearerthinkingpodcast.com/episode/077

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Reinforcing Habits

Epistemic status: hypothesis based on >10 anecdotal examples 

Every month or so, I’ll get a client asking why their attempts to start a habit failed. They want to have an automatic action requiring minimal willpower. The client is usually familiar with at least one habit-building model. Most commonly Charles Duhigg’s Cue, Routine, Reward loop (in “The Power of Habit”) or CFAR’s Trigger-Action Plans (TAPs).

Their model may go like Duhigg’s story: he wanted to change his habit of eating a cookie each afternoon (motivated by watching the scale creep up). So he identified his cue (the time of day around 3pm), planned a new routine to replace the old one (talk to colleagues for ten minutes), and had a new habit. My client usually wants to know what thwarts their attempts to do likewise.

What’s missing from that example? 

I read The Power of Habit many years ago, and honestly didn’t remember Duhigg’s cookie story any better than my clients often do. So I was surprised when I revisited it and found Duhigg actually did a series of experiments to find what the reward was. Something sweet? Nope, eating a candy bar at his desk didn’t feel great. Just taking a break? Nope, taking a walk outside didn’t cut it. Talking with friends? Yeah, that felt rewarding. Based on his experiments, we can guess that getting a cookie each afternoon was a means for getting him to talk to his colleagues while eating it. Because the reward here was socializing, he could build a new habit that didn’t use the cookie as an intermediate step. 

This reward step is often neglected by my habit-struggling clients. They want the low-effort, automatic aspects of habits. They lack, however, anything to make those behaviors sticky. 

I think it might help to reframe habits as repeatedly-reinforced behaviors. Our brains, often subconsciously, have tied a particular action to some cue after repeatedly having that action rewarded. Simple patterns of cue, action, and reward in close proximity get reinforced, such as “it’s mid afternoon -> I’ll get a cookie -> rewarded by social connection.” 

Intentionally designing good habits is hard. By default, our unconscious habits are selected for rewarding behaviors. For example, when I’m feeling blue, eating chocolate and hugs make me happier. I don’t need to train myself to eat chocolate when I feel blue - this happens quite easily! 

On the other hand, you have to intentionally find the reward when you’re trying to kickstart a habit. In particular, you need to find the reward if you want your habit to happen automatically without willpower each time. A random desired behavior may not have an immediate reward, so you need to experiment. (I’m not guaranteeing that all behaviors can be made into habits - there’s a reason that doctors recommend “whichever exercise you’ll actually do” rather than a specific fitness-optimized routine.) 

Two similar actions can cause very different experiences due to small differences specific to you. Pullup hangs and RSI wrist stretches were both small actions that I repeated for brief reps three times a day. The pull-up hangs were motivating because I could see myself improve day to day - an extra second here, three seconds longer there. The RSI stretches quickly became demotivating because I couldn’t see myself making any progress even after a couple weeks of consistent use. 

Similarly, 7am yoga required financial penalties to get me into downward dog before the world warmed up. Walking a mile in the peaceful evening while thinking or calling a friend was a piece of cake in comparison. 

The best rewards are natural consequences of the action--i.e. the experience of doing the action reinforces the behavior. The reward might be enjoyment of the action, seeing progress toward a goal, a social status boost, consistency with your sense of self, connection, release from a worry, etc. Note, all of these are gut-level feelings, not “shoulds”. A System 2-level sense of “I should…” doesn’t seem to have the same rewarding effect. You actually have to find what feels rewarding. If you can identify and increase the reward, you can make the habit easier to sustain. This implies that the best way to deliberately change/start habits is to choose new habits with immediate positive outcomes, and make those benefits salient. 

On the other hand, you can also try to tack on a reward that doesn’t inherently come with the action, such as fist pumping the air or using financial penalties. Arbitrary rewards can be quite useful (particularly in situations when you just have to push through something unpleasant). However, financial penalties and other arbitrary rewards fall apart if you stop applying a bit of willpower to set them up each time. Rewards with a self-coercive element are also more draining/stressful to use for many people. (Not surprising - the rewarding habit is more pleasant than a financial penalty.)

One popular example is temptation bundling. The idea is you only give into a temptation while also doing a desired activity, such as only watching TV while exercising. However, a common outcome is someone tries to watch TV exclusively while exercising, only to have some part of their brain point out that nothing is stopping them from watching TV in bed…

In contrast, here are few examples of people using natural rewards to reinforce habits:

  1. According to Nate Soares, “When I was quite young, one of the guests at our house refused to eat processed food. I remember that I offered her some fritos and she refused. I was fairly astonished, and young enough to be socially inept. I asked, incredulous, how someone could not like fritos. To my surprise, she didn't brush me off or feed me banal lines about how different people have different tastes. She gave me the answer of someone who had recently stopped liking fritos through an act of will. Her answer went something like this: ‘Just start noticing how greasy they are, and how the grease gets all over your fingers and coats the inside of the bag. Notice that you don't want to eat things soaked in that much grease. Become repulsed by it, and then you won't like them either.’"

  2. Tara Mac Aulay: “I found that going to lift weights with friends is surprisingly good, because I get to have a good chat with them for an hour, and it's not strenuous enough that you can't have a conversation. But if I was to go on a bike ride with friends or something else where you can't talk, it's not as nice. And my main exercise is probably just walking and dancing. I go out dancing a lot on my own, to go and see music artists that I enjoy, and I just dance like a crazy person until I'm really tired and then I go home, and that's amazing.”

  3. I struggled for a while to brush my teeth consistently. I eventually paid mindful attention to the feeling of stuff on my teeth. The little layer of course film when I hadn’t brushed after eating, and the polished silk of freshly brushed teeth. I started getting annoyed at the texture on my teeth, and then brushing was easy.

Experimenting and paying close attention to what feels rewarding seem to be common elements behind the successes above. 

A couple ideas if you want to try using natural rewards to build habits for yourself:

  • Run experiments to find what you enjoy enough to easily make a habit. You can track these formally, or just note which are easier to do repeatedly.

  • Use Soares’ technique of focusing on the experience of minute details that attract you to habits you want, or make unwanted habits less desirable. For example, pay attention to how much better you feel when you don’t have an important email hanging over your head, compared to when you were procrastinating.

  • Use this CBT Pleasure Predicting Worksheet to increase your awareness of how much you enjoy activities. This sheet works by highlighting discrepancies between expected and experienced enjoyment.

Five Whys

Five Whys is a technique I borrowed from Lean methodology for getting to the root cause of a problem. As shown in the example below, I use the method to identify many possible solutions to a particular productivity problem.

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